Swami Sarvapriyananda and Deepak Chopra – ” Discussion on Vedanta”
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Introduction
- The discussion aims to solve the mystery of existence within approximately 40 minutes, starting with the introduction of the hard problem of consciousness, which is the first open question in science, and is considered unsolvable if matter is seen as the foundational element 00:03.
- The universe is composed of 96% mysterious dark energy and dark matter, with only 4% being atomic, and of that 4%, 99.99% is invisible interstellar dust, leaving only a small percentage of the universe visible and composed of atoms 00:43.
- The visible universe is estimated to consist of two trillion galaxies, with the Milky Way galaxy being just one of them, and potentially 60 billion habitable planets in the galaxy, based on the Goldilocks zone 01:25.
- Atoms, which make up the visible universe, have a mysterious behavior, acting as particles when observed and as waves when not interacted with, leading to the question of why the universe appears as it does 02:07.
The Hard Problem of Consciousness and Vedanta
- The hard problem of consciousness questions how atoms and molecules in the brain create the experience of the mind and body, with many considering it unsolvable if matter is seen as the foundational element 02:48.
- Vedanta, a philosophical system based on ancient texts called the Upanishads, offers a solution to this problem by positing that consciousness is fundamental and matter is a human construct 03:33.
- The Upanishads contain insights into the nature of reality and human existence, and understanding these insights can solve human problems such as suffering, death, and meaninglessness 04:10.
Brahman and Atman
- The central teaching of Vedanta is that there is an absolute reality, known as Brahman, and that the individual self is a manifestation of this reality, with the phrase “Tat Tvam Asi” meaning “thou art that” 05:12.
- The core teaching of Vedanta is that absolute reality can be experienced in life, and it is not just a speculation, but rather it must be experienced in order to overcome suffering, with absolute reality often expressed as pure consciousness, pure existence, awareness, or bliss 05:49.
- The nature of ultimate reality, as described by Swami Vivekananda, is existence itself, consciousness itself, and bliss itself, which can be referred to as consciousness for convenience and is the basis of every experience, whether it’s mind, body, or the universe 06:31.
Defining Consciousness
- Consciousness studies have become very important in the last 20-25 years, with scientists, psychologists, neuroscientists, linguists, philosophers, cosmologists, and computer scientists all interested in the field, but there is no consensus on the definition of consciousness, with multiple definitions and no single acceptable one across the board 07:29.
- From the Vedanta perspective, consciousness can be defined by exclusion, where anything that one is aware of is not consciousness, but rather an object of consciousness, and consciousness is the awareness in which experience becomes possible, or the knowing element in every experience 08:45.
- Non-dualists in the West describe consciousness as the knowing element in every experience, or the space in which all experience occurs, and some have expanded on this idea to say that consciousness is that in which all experience is known and out of which all experience is made 10:05.
- To understand consciousness, one must eliminate everything that is objective from their experience, including physical objects, thoughts, and the mind, which are all objects of awareness, and what remains is consciousness as it is, which cannot be caught or objectified 10:41.
- Consciousness is the real self, and one definition of it is that which shines upon all objects, including the body, eyes, mind, and thoughts, and it is the knowing element that is aware of all these objects 11:52.
- The object is experience in consciousness, and even thoughts and magic are objects, so one cannot go looking for consciousness because it is that which is doing the looking, and it is not something that can be found out there 12:36.
Consciousness and Reality
- When a baby is born, it experiences the world through sensory perceptions, such as colors, shapes, and sensations, without labels, but humans create labels and constructs, such as naming things, which creates a human construct of what is really a sensory perception 13:11.
- This naming and labeling create a mental activity that can be considered an activity in consciousness, and according to one of the schools of Vedanta, everything is made out of consciousness, including the human construct of the world 14:28.
- The school of Advaita Vedanta, or non-dual Vedanta, posits that not only is the individual consciousness, but everything else is also consciousness, which may seem like a radical idea to some, but is a well-developed and consistent system of philosophy 15:03.
- The idea that everything is consciousness is explored, where the objective world is seen as not being consciousness, but the awareness of the object is consciousness, leaving the entire universe, including one’s own body and mind, as objects, with the self being the consciousness witnessing all of this 15:21.
- Vedanta becomes interesting as it states that all objects experienced in consciousness are actually nothing other than consciousness itself, with the pure consciousness appearing as a world set in space and time, full of objects, with the help of name and form, also known as Maya or Nama Rupa 15:57.
- The concept of name and form is used to interpret reality, with language playing a role in creating constructs of fundamental reality, and as soon as a word is created, a construct of reality is formed, which is based on consciousness 17:16.
- The Vedic worldview explains that the absolute reality is called Brahman, which etymologically means the vast or limitless, and is not the name of a particular god, but rather the infinite, which is defined as that which is not limited in space, time, and object 18:14.
- The concept of infinite is explored, with mathematicians and scientists having precise definitions of infinity, and in Sanskrit, the infinite is defined as that which is not limited in space, time, and object, with limitations in time being born, dying, and being created and destroyed 18:33.
- The idea of eternity is discussed, with eternal not meaning stretching in time forever, but rather being timeless, not in time, and that time is in consciousness, not consciousness in time, as experienced by individuals 19:12.
Jeeva vs Brahman
- The difference between Jeeva and Brahman is to be explained, with Brahman being the absolute reality, and Jeeva being a concept that will be explored further, as part of Vedanta 101 17:54.
- In Indian philosophy, each object has its own identity and is different from everything else, which is referred to as limitation by object, and being infinite means it is not limited to any particular object, which is a key concept in understanding Brahman, the non-dual reality 20:07.
- Brahman is not limited by time, space, or object, and consciousness is not limited by its contents, which is a fundamental idea in Vedanta, and the concept of Atman, or the individual self, is also crucial in understanding this philosophy 20:47.
- Atman means the individual self, and according to Vedanta, Brahman is equal to Atman, meaning that the infinite reality is not limited by time, space, and object, and is the absolute consciousness that shines through the mind and body 21:11.
- The concept of Atman is not the same as the physical body or the mind, but rather the pure consciousness that reveals the person, and discovering the reality of the self is a key aspect of Vedanta, which involves finding out who or what one truly is 21:31.
- The term “selfie” is used to distinguish between the individual self, or Atman, and the physical body or mind, and the idea of taking a picture of oneself as one really is, as pure consciousness, is referred to as the ultimate selfie 22:12.
- The difference between Atman and the Sanskrit term Jeeva is that Jeeva refers to the individual self as it is experienced in the present moment, with its limitations and changes, whereas Atman is the pure consciousness that underlies this experience 22:50.
- Jeeva is a conscious being that is limited to a body and mind, which are subject to change and decay, and this individual self is shaped by its experiences, karma, and vasanas, which are patterns of thought and behavior 23:07.
- The body and mind are not static entities, but rather a series of changes, and the individual self, or Jeeva, is an activity, a verb, rather than a noun, and is shaped by its interactions with the world and its own consciousness 23:44.
- The concept of Jeeva is central to the Vedantic understanding of the person, and involves the idea that the individual self is programmed by its past experiences, karma, and vasanas, which influence its thoughts and actions 24:18.
- The terms sanskara, karma, and vasana refer to the patterns of thought and behavior that shape the individual self, and are key concepts in understanding the nature of the self and its relationship to the world 24:37.
Karma and Rebirth
- The Vedanta worldview posits that life does not end with death, and that even the most newborn baby is an ancient creature that has existed many lives before and will possibly exist in many more lives ahead, accumulating karma through actions and their effects over an infinite period of time 25:03.
- The law of karma, which states that every action has its reaction or effect, is a fundamental concept in Indian philosophy, accepted by various Indic philosophies such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, and explains the differences between individuals as consciousness 25:43.
- The law of karma has two effects: it gives individuals their current life and has an impact on their minds, resulting in individual likes and dislikes, which are referred to as samskaras and exist in the mind and subtle body 26:39.
- The differences between individuals, including their personalities and preferences, are believed to be the result of past karma and are inherited from past lives, as evident in the unique personalities of identical twins or children raised in the same environment 27:17.
The Multiple Bodies
- Vedanta describes the human being as consisting of multiple bodies, including the physical body, subtle body, and causal body, which are all grounded in experience and can be directly observed through first-person experience, with the subtle body encompassing thoughts, emotions, and experiences, and the causal body representing the blankness experienced in deep sleep 28:17.
- The physical body is that which can be seen, touched, and perceived through the senses, while the subtle body is the realm of thoughts, emotions, and experiences, and the causal body is the deeper, more obscure aspect of human consciousness that is experienced in deep sleep 28:37.
- The real self, or Atman, is not identified with the physical body, but rather is the essence that experiences the subtle body and exists beyond the causal body 29:15.
- The concept of consciousness is discussed, where it is stated that consciousness is not the body, subtle body, mind, person, or causal body, but rather the consciousness in which all of these are experienced, as embodied beings with a body and mind, but not limited to them 29:33.
Waking, Dreaming, and Deep Sleep
- The experience of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep is explored, with the understanding that in deep sleep, there is awareness, but not conscious experience, raising questions about the nature of consciousness during this state and under anesthesia 30:11.
- Vedanta insists that there is consciousness present even in deep sleep, and that the fundamental difference between ordinary discourse and Vedanta is that the mind is not consciousness, but rather consciousness plus the activity of the mind, with consciousness revealing the activity of the mind 31:10.
- The idea that deep sleep is not an absence of experience, but rather an experience of absence, is introduced, where consciousness has no object because the world is not revealed, and the body and mind are shut down, but upon waking, one can say they slept well, indicating that there is still consciousness present 31:49.
- The phenomenon of consciousness in deep sleep is supported by the book “Waking, Dreaming, Being” by Evan Thompson, which suggests that consciousness studies have their roots in the Upanishads 5000 years ago, and that even in deep sleep, consciousness is present 32:45.
- The relationship between deep sleep and death is explored, with the idea that the real self is not subject to birth or death, as stated by Lord Krishna, and that some Swamis believe that the answer to what happens after death is that they were never born, highlighting the connection between waking, dreaming, and the nature of consciousness 33:48.
- Vedanta looks at the concept of Turiya, which literally means the fourth, as a state of consciousness that is apart from the three common states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, and is the witness of the birth and death of the body, as well as the changes of the mind 34:25.
- The three common states of consciousness are the Waker, the dreamer, and the deep sleeper, and Vedanta teaches that one is not any of these three states, but rather the consciousness in which they appear and disappear, which is called Turiya 35:41.
- Turiya is not subject to birth, death, or change, and is the witness of the birth, death, and aging of the body, as well as the changes of the mind, and this concept is discussed in the Mundaka Upanishad, a classic text of Advaita Vedanta 36:17.
Turiya and Maya
- The idea that life is a dream and we are asleep, but occasionally wake up to realize we are dreaming, is also discussed, and is related to the concept of Maya, which refers to the projection of consciousness 37:20.
- The concept of the waking dream, which is ungraspable and fleeting, is also explored, and is compared to the idea that our memories and imagination are not necessarily “real” in the classical sense, and that the distinction between reality and dreams is not always clear-cut 37:59.
- The discussion of Turiya and the nature of reality is intended to help alleviate existential suffering, although the exact connection to this goal is not fully explained in this segment 38:18.
- The imagination of an experience, such as eating a cookie, and the actual experience are similar in that they both occur in the mind and are mental, and every fleeting moment becomes a memory at a tremendous speed, disappearing into a dreamlike state 38:56.
- The present moment feels very real because of the presence of consciousness, which lends reality to it, and this is true even in dreams, where the dream feels real at the time it is being experienced 39:34.
- The only constant in any experience is the “I” that is aware of the experience, and this “I” is not the ego, but rather the witness of the ego, which is the luminous consciousness that brings light and awareness to the experience 40:13.
- The ego comes and goes, but consciousness is always present, and it is this consciousness that allows us to have experiences, even when the ego is not apparent, such as when deeply absorbed in an activity 40:51.
Overcoming Suffering
- The point of understanding the nature of consciousness and the self is to overcome suffering and attain true lasting peace and happiness, which is the goal of Indian philosophies, including Vedanta, Buddhism, and others 41:31.
- Suffering occurs in the body and mind, but the consciousness that reveals the body and mind does not suffer, and becoming aware of this can create a distance between the experiencer and the experienced unhappiness, leading to a sense of peace 42:12.
- This understanding can be achieved by recognizing that if one is aware of their unhappiness, then that unhappiness is an object, and the consciousness aware of it is not the object itself, and this realization can bring about a sense of peace and freedom from suffering 42:48.
- The mind is changeable, and its state of peace or unhappiness can shift rapidly, as illustrated by the example of being happy at the Rubin Museum but unhappy in Times Square, both of which are appearances and disappearances in the mind 43:29.
- Vedanta helps to stabilize oneself in witness consciousness, freeing one from the ups and downs of the mind, body, and world, and this is where the whole purpose of Vedanta lies, going back to the concept of the five pleasures 43:47.
- The five pleasures are connected to yoga, which involves not knowing the true nature of reality, grasping and clinging to that which is ungraspable, fear of impermanence, and identifying with the ego, all of which are interconnected 44:26.
- Asking the question “what am I” or “Who am I” can lead to the source, making all these things, including the fear of death, disappear, as discussed in the context of Shankara’s areas 44:44.
Death and the Jeeva
- The concept of death is explored, and it is noted that if one is not the body, then what is dead, and in Vedanta, death is the passing away of the particular body, but the individual person, or Jeeva, moves on, and this is an experience in consciousness 46:27.
- The experience of birth and death of the body takes place in consciousness, but the witnessing awareness is not subject to death, and this is a subtle but interesting point, as people often switch between the body being dead and the person being dead, without realizing the distinction 47:27.
- The five great unsolved questions of philosophy, as discussed on the Oxford University Press website, include questions about free will, what can be known, what am I, what is death, and what is justice, with four of these questions being directly related to consciousness 45:46.
- The question of what is death is explored from the perspective of a doctor, but also from the perspective of Vedanta, where death is not the end of the individual, but rather the end of a particular experience in consciousness 46:48.
- The concept of a person is often understood as an entity encased in a body, and death is seen as the death of the body, but this understanding is challenged by the idea that the body is not a fixed entity, but rather a stream of changes, a flow of sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts 48:05.
- From a yogic perspective, death is viewed as the moving on of the Jeeva from one non-functional body to another, and this experience is not limited to the physical body, but also includes the mind and the experience of the world 49:26.
Vedanta and Yoga Practices
- Vedanta is not just a philosophy or a system of thought, but rather a foundation that is grounded in experience, and it does not talk about anything that is different from what is experienced in everyday life 50:08.
- There are various techniques in yoga that can help achieve a direct experience of the self, including meditative practices, such as those described in the Yoga Sutra, which is a classic manual of meditation 51:10.
- Other practices include bhakti yoga, which is based on emotion and feeling, and karma yoga, which seeks to convert action and work into spiritual practice, by living unselfishly and for a higher purpose 51:47.
- Jnana yoga, the path of knowledge, is also an important practice, which involves investigating the nature of the self and the world, through methods such as the three stages of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, and the five sheaths, including the physical, vital, mental, intellectual, and causal sheaths 52:25.
- The ultimate goal of these practices is to lead to an intuitive experience of the self as immortal, pure consciousness, which can be directly verified through experience 52:44.